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DITW 11-6: Shortcomings

🕑 Added 2023-07-26 01:00:03 +0000 UTC

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Bill H.

"How could he trust a woman that he knew his bully had fingered behind his back? Maybe because he was the one to blame? Was that it? That it all fell at his feet. He was responsible." I'm amazed that Josh is blaming himself for this. Yes, his kink started it, and he's a weak man, but Kimmy could have said 'No' to Devlin at any point and stopped things from going forward. If she had put up the blockades, that's where it stops. The woman is in control of how far things go. But her weakness for Devlin wouldn't let her say 'No' to him. I'm reminded of a line from Fiona Apple's song "Criminal": "I've been careless with a delicate man." Kimmy is 100% to blame.

L.

Jeezus! I haven’t read those books yet. Are they as good as THIS????

L.

— “There is high risk if Josh ever finds out the whole truth from another, because that trust thing that Kimmy is asking for would be shattered, but in this moment, it's probably the best path in her mind.” shattering the trust thing ain’t gonna happen. Kimmy is testing the waters. SHE is boiling Josh. She knows how to trickle-truth Josh into submission.

L.

— “ His kink is not running this game. Even when he is near-suicidal, Kimmy is looking for ways to gaslight him and restart the game while Devlin views Josh's angst as just a minor bump in the road.”

L.

Great point. It’s possible that The NewNew Kimmy is now so confident in her power that she’s convinced that she can have Devlin AND Josh.

L.

“Trust me. I’ll protect you.” Plays to Josh weakness. If he won’t “protect them,” she will.’

Wess

Kimmy tells him Devlin is boiling him like a frog and he doesn’t react?! Then she offers to protect him from Devlin? No idea why she’s so attracted to a doormat who just wants to be hurt and humiliated. I was hoping Josh would stand up to both bullies but now I’m rooting for K&D to put him out of his misery.

CSH

I understand your point. Here’s why I disagree though. I keeping coming back to this because, in my opinion, obsessing over Kimmy’s honesty is missing the point. Josh never really wanted the truth. He wanted fantasy Kimmy. Part of him wants her to be the deceiving slut who cucks him with his worst enemy. He hates it, he’s disgusted by it, but he really gets off on it so much that he can’t stop asking her to be that woman. Kimmy understood this. She wanted him to accept the truth but knew that it being a fantasy gave him the courage to indulge. When Devlin made it real, Josh rebelled telling himself and Kimmy he wasn’t like that, he could never really accept that, etc. But now here he is asking for it again, knowing he shouldn’t but unable to stop himself. Now he knows it’s real but he’s not ready for everything, he’s just accepting that when he asks something now he’s likely getting the truth. So ask away Josh. I bet he won’t. He just wants enough truth to get himself off. One day, when his tolerance is built up, he could accept the whole history. And here is my interpretation of Kimmy protecting him: she knows Josh can’t really handle the full reality, she’s going to spoon feed it to him, bit by bit, building up his tolerance for the big day instead of dropping it all on him at once like Devlin did.

CSH

Glaucon I agree. Let’s look at it like this: Did Josh ask Devlin to cuck him? Either it’s yes or no. Reality or a dream. Let’s suppose the answer is no. That’s not a given since the scene in the tent might mean that he literally asked Devlin to cuck him. But let’s assume it’s no. Even in that case, once disclosed to Kimmy, Josh’s obsession with her being with Devlin has stopped him doing what he knows he must to end it and caused him to instead encourage her behavior. So, yes of course it is a major causative factor in her affair. Josh is a victim but he’s not an innocent one. He is sexually obsessed with his own victimization. Kimmy got with Devlin for the biggus dickus but in a world where josh did not have this fetish, the affair would have likely run its course and ended. Certainly it would have done so at the point Devlin disclosed it to Josh. Kimmy was encouraged to continue it by Josh’s reaction to her behavior.

Glaucon

Yes I definitely agree this thought is not about Josh's kinks having any kind of active agency at the start of the affair. To me this passage is part of a recurring theme of the series, that on some level Josh's fear of and fixation on Devlin as his victimizer has ironically and painfully been a major factor in the affair existing in the first place.

L_S87

In my opinion, this statement is less about Josh and more about Kimmy and her dark motivations. The game and Josh's desires were known to her at this particular point in book 8, but they weren't when she first started having sex with Devlin. This statement, to me, is more meant to reflect that sleeping with Josh's bully really does something for her sexually, the thought of Josh being humiliated like that hits her right in her mental clit. So, while Josh is necessary as a person, as her husband, to create that emotional spark, Josh himself has no direct agency in that thought. There was no direct action from Josh that put her there, he didn't start hinting at things until she was already in the position where she was getting off on this scenario. So while this thought occured in book 8, these same reasons were what motivated her to cheat in the first couple of books, well before the game or Josh showing his kink to her.

Kat

Emotional support animal, lol.

L_S87

Very astute point. It gives Josh what he craves while hiding what she knows would hurt him. Not knowing the entire truth, from start to finish, isn't in his best interests long term, imo, but this tact definitely gives Josh what he wants sexually, gives Kimmy what she wants sexually, and keeps the immediate risk low for Kimmy. There is high risk if Josh ever finds out the whole truth from another, because that trust thing that Kimmy is asking for would be shattered, but in this moment, it's probably the best path in her mind. I want her to give in and lay it all out because it would show she's learned from her mistakes, but I don't think she has it in her to go that far. Confident Kimmy is much stronger than the women we've seen for the past several weeks, but she's also manipulative and a habitual liar, or at least Confident Kimmy from the past was. It will be interesting to see if that pain and sorrow she's showing when Josh again says he doesn't blame her, because she knows he's putting the blame on his own shoulders, will finally motivate her to remove that blame, at least partially, by telling him that it was always her choice, her darkness, from the very beginning.

Donkatsu

Good Points. I appreciate your efforts to research these matters and support your wish to get to the bottom of this; it is the real key to "Kimmy Theory." I understand the "inquiry Into the Nature of Kimmy C" will be published as a monograph later this year by one of the university presses and is expected to become required reading in Freshman philosophy or rhetoric courses, to be studied alongside "The Republic and Other Dialogues." We may find out soon where this whole dynamic fits on the Respect/Hypocrisy/Truth/Gaslighting/Torture frequency diagram. Boiled down, the passage means she has to manipulate Josh into being her emotional support animal in order to get what she really wants - the killer job, boss wardrobe, and the killer cock. Not sure her wishes translate readily into respect or love for Josh; an unstable dynamic at best.

Donkatsu

This discussion is great. We are returning to "Maggie" and "Cherry Blossoms" levels of reader engagement. I love it!

CSH

A smart lawyer would answer the question she wants to be asked not the actual one asked. She can simply tell him what she did that day with Devlin. It’s true, it’s nasty, and she did it. It excites Josh and tricks him into revealing clues as to what he’s specifically asking about. Let’s not forget she just thought of Devlin as a pig. She wants to live with Josh and screw Devlin.

Glaucon

The passage I'm thinking about for Kimmy's mindset is from book 8: "But in her core, somewhere just below her heart muscle, burned a coal-fired diamond of knowledge: she couldn’t be with Devlin without Josh. Not for real. The only cement that held her together with this asshole she didn’t even really like was the buttery pleasure derived from Josh’s sexual torment. Had it always been about that? Never in her life had she ever been this kind of terrible human being. Never before had she desired Devlin Stone. At Tiffany’s party, she clearly hated Devlin Stone. After Tiffany’s party, she clearly hated Devlin Stone. The only thing that brought her together with him was Josh’s fear that it would happen." We can debate the honesty of her belief here but it’s interesting to me that for both Kimmy and Devlin it seems like Josh (but not necessarily Josh’s informed consent) is an integral component of their sexual chemistry.

Glaucon

I don't think Kimmy is particularly interested in Devlin outside the bedroom, so at this point her ideal is to have her cake and eat it too so to speak and have them both in relationships on her terms, Devlin for her sexual needs and Josh for her emotional needs.

Donkatsu

Kimmy got together with Devlin the first several times without Josh's knowledge. He even suspected a tryst at the RY Hotel and then backed off the confirmation, preferring to torture himself in his shame. Kimmy was actually rather blatant about it in Cayman. His kink is not running this game. Even when he is near-suicidal, Kimmy is looking for ways to gaslight him and restart the game while Devlin views Josh's angst as just a minor bump in the road.

Kat

Kimmy loves the lifestyle and power she commands working for Devlin. Her life with Josh is unfulfilling. After dressing up again, she realizes she can’t go back, and Josh is just going to have to deal with it. What I don’t understand is why she doesn’t leave Josh for Devlin and make it final. She claims to love him, but Kimmy only loves herself. She’s attached to Josh for comfort, but the longer she stays as huntress Kimmy, the less she’s going to need good old security blanket Josh. She’s not even trying to seem sorry for anything that happened in the hotel. Maybe Josh can be the nanny to Kimmy and Devlin’s kid? I can’t wait to hear her response to Josh’s question, and the realization that Devlin also sent Josh the picture of her from the docks. I don’t think she knows that yet.

L_S87

Yes, it will be interesting to see where this rediscovered confidence takes them, because it's clear at this point that Kimmy has decided to take the reins and exert some control. The question is, does she return 100% to her old ways like Devlin wants or does she meld her new strength with the remorse and understanding gained over the last two weeks into something different? Something that allows her to help Josh garner the respect she says he deserves while getting what she clearly wants. I think that only comes via telling him more than just the truth of her day with Devlin, but what came before so he realizes he's not at fault. We'll see!

Glaucon

Just took another look and I think if I understand you, you're saying Josh overestimates his control of the situation, which I definitely agree with! I'm only saying that while he lacks ultimate control he's still in a weird way been positioned as a major causative component of the affair.

Glaucon

Don't forget that Kimmy has also thought that Josh was the causative agent while she's been alone with Devlin (though I'll definitely agree that A LOT of what Kimmy thinks is rationalization/self-justification for whatever she wants to do anyway, so we have to take it with a grain of salt!), and Devlin often brings up Josh unprompted during sex with Kimmy, it's clearly a turn-on for him. Josh is wrong about a lot IMO and certainly wrong in what he thinks is happening right now, but I don't think Josh is exactly out-and-out wrong in thinking this, just maybe not in the way he thinks.

L_S87

100% Spot on. She has two paths as I see it. The one you stated where she gives him truth from here on out, using it to give him his sexual desires while fulfilling her own even more so, all while putting him into a box he can never get out of. It will be horrible, yet inescapable. The other path is the one I described, being fully truthful because that would actually protect Josh by giving him choice and agency. It all revolves around whether she truly respects him as she states, or if that's just a bullshit line to get him to acquiesce because she's back to her old manipulative self. Only she knows. The next chapters will tell us. Can't wait to find out!

Donkatsu

Love the comments. Josh still overestimates his role in the Kimmy-Devlin story. He believes, against all evidence, that he is the causative agent of the K-D sex train, however minor that is in his thinking, and of Kimmy's agreeing to tantalize and tempt Devlin with the occasional feel or flash. Both Devlin and Kimmy understand Josh's misperception and use it for their own purposes. Kimmy is absolutely correct that Devlin is boiling him like a frog, because Devlin understands that Josh still does not really know the extent of what is going on with K-D's sexual relationship. Kimmy is gaslighting him because she has seen her stark choice, assisted by Devlin's framing: wear home-spun and Chuck Taylors whilst making cat baskets, or assert her full power over men and events. She will only let out as much truth as she absolutely must, and never more than she thinks Josh can handle at one time. She has to keep the illusion alive that Josh played a role in this and that she is doing this in part to feed his kink and show her love for him. She may love him but she certainly does not respect him. The non-apology and inch by inch lines certainly show that. In addition, somebody has to take care of the kid. Both the kid and the primary caregiver, Josh, need protection, as Kimmy acknowledges and promises to Josh. All protection carries a price, one that Kimmy now realizes she is fully prepared to collect from Josh's soul.

CSH

Look there is honest and then there is honest. It’s better she doesn’t tell it all at once. She’s being honest about how it will be if not about what she did. Tell him one episode, it will excite him and suffice for the moment, keep other things for other times. Josh doesn’t want an honest accounting, he wants stimulation and teasing. Sexually, Josh needs her betrayal. Got to say I think this was the right line for Kimmy: “He gets what he wants, Josh. Inch by inch, minute by minute. It’s inexorable.” That and the boiling frog line summarized it all really. What more does Josh need to know? Of course the “let me protect you” line is brilliant in its duplicity. She’ll protect him by putting the lid on the pot as she watches him boil. Perhaps Kimmy has decided to now only do as much with Devlin as she is willing to tell Josh. That could both allow her to be honest for now and motivate her and Devlin to bring him around.

Kat

Yeah, she’s saying she’s sorry it’s like this, but she’s the reason it’s like this! She says things with Devlin are inexorable, is she saying she has no control over anything anymore? I don’t believe that at all. She is making these choices all on her own. The only way Devlin has power is because Kimmy is giving it to him. Loved this chapter.

Tracey52

I’m worried that Josh will give her the green light without knowing what went on before. There’s no way she’ll tell him everything.

Glaucon

I agree that line feels very emblematic of Kimmy's attitude and relationship with events throughout the story. It takes the format of an apology, but the message is very non-apologetic, ultimately self-serving, like when someone says "I'm sorry you feel this way." It implicitly absolves the speaker of responsibility. Kimmy didn't cause anything, it's just "like this." Such great writing!

L_S87

That "I'm sorry it's like this" line is so poignant, and completely loaded. It's an apology of the past, of things Josh has no clue about, and for the future, of things she already knows she's given on internally, having sex with Devlin again, because she wants to. I know she loves him, but I don't know how someone can love like that, and yet gaslight the one they love about respecting them. Respect wouldn't just be telling the truth of the last few hours, it would be having the confidence to tell him ALL the truth, respecting him enough, loving him enough, that you tell him all the evil things you've done and then letting him decide how their relationship proceeds. Is this new Confident Kimmy who stands so strong and tall in front of him, who wants to protect him, confident enough to protect Josh from the one person who can do the most damage with her lies? Kimmy herself?


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