sylviemuay
patreon
Muay Thai Bones Podcast #24 - Loss of Art, Gender and Muay Thai, Should Female Fighters Aim to Fight Men? (2hrs, 26 min)
🕑 Added 2021-07-20 08:41:36 +0000 UTCThis is episode 24 of the Muay Thai Bones podcast. As a patron you get the audio version (above), timestamps for topics and the reading notes to anything that we reference in our talk. We call it the best in-depth Muay Thai podcast in the world, diving down into the philosophical and historical aspects of the sport. Thank you everyone for supporting this content, hope you enjoy this episode.
How to Listen or watch:
Apple & Android: Read my quick article to see how to add Muay Thai Bones podcast to Apple Podcasts or other subscription services. It's easy to do! Just grab your personal and exclusive RSS link.
You can see and read all the Muay Thai Bones episodes on Patreon here.
So listen to Muay Thai Bones ep 24 on audio (above), or if you can also hang out with us in the garden (below):
Watch episode 24 of the Muay Thai Bones podcast here on YouTube
episode 24 - subjects and timestamps (subtract 20 seconds for the audio version)
1. Jimmy Page, Compression, Historical Loss & The Muay of Rama IX (4:58) on video)
2. Sylvie's Experiences with the Gender Divide In Thailand's Muay Thai: Nong Toom, Phetjee Jaa and Angie (50:26 on video)
3. Should Female Fighters Aim to Fight Men? (1:36:16 on video)
Reading Notes
There aren't a lot of reading notes this episode, but there are a few things we mention. If there is a reference of something you'd like follow up on tell us in comments and we'll edit it in.
1. Jimmy Page, MP3, Compression and History, the Muay of Rama IX
we've watched several Jimmy Page interviews and documentaries, I think this is one where he discusses the compression of his music, but I'm not sure. He's discussed it several times. Watch it here
listen to Kashmir here - referenced as a volume production
Kevin's not sure where he read Dennett's discussion of Bach and the experience of music, but it may have been in this book
It may also be in this lecture (below)
This is the best "reading note" we could get from this reference, if we find better we'll update the post.
Walter Benjamin and the Angel of History:
read about it here on Wikipedia with follow up Wikipedia on the essay itself
You can watch this interview here, we mention Padejseuk's reception of the Prince's cup in the podcast:
Sylvie fighting at the very end of the King Rama IX era, with two legends in her corner Karuhat and Dieselnoi. The King's Birthday, after he had died. photo Lord 2K, above
2. Sylvie's Experiences with the Gender Divide In Thailand's Muay Thai: Nong Toom, Phetjee Jaa and Angie
above, my voiced encouragement of trans athletes, mentioned in the podcast - watch it here
Above, Sylvie with Nong Toom and with her trainer Den, who was at Lanna when Nong Toom was there, on the first card she shared with her.
Below, when I first visited Jee Jaa's small ring and gym. They slept under the ring, as a little makeshift house:
Below, some footage of Sylvie training at Omeekhun gym (at a new location) with Jee Jaa's family:
also here you can see our man in the middle clinch sessions, as the sun was going down.
After I took Phetjee Jaa and her brother Mawin to go see How to Train Your Dragon, here
Below, I filmed the last fight Phetjee Jaa was allowed to fight against a boy:
Notes on Toms And Dees
In the conversation for this podcast, Kevin and I had to use an over-simplified explanation of "Tom" identity in Thailand. It is, in fact, both complex and wide-reaching in terms of all the disparities within a single, umbrella term. The word itself is short for "Tomboy" in that it basically grabs a masculine way of presenting. These identities are largely sexually oriented toward women, but there are such things as Tom + Tom relationships and while some Toms still identify as female and use the female pronouns and polite particles, others identify as male and use male personal pronouns and polite articles. Among top fighters in Thailand: Phetjeejaa, for example, now uses male pronouns; Tanonchanok has even posted to facebook implying an ultimate desire for surgical sex reassignment. Dokmaibaa, however, uses female personal pronouns and yet another example of Yodying is a Tom who uses female personal pronouns publicly and male personal pronouns among closer friends and acquaintances. This is complicated by social pressures, as Phetjeejaa for example uses male pronouns and chooses very male phrases and attitudes for facebook, but uses female pronouns while being interviewed on stage after fights for THAI FIGHT, as it's on TV.
Tom includes a Trans identity, but one that has a significant spectrum of specifications under a fairly broad term.
read my reading notes on Toms and Dees here
Below, my interview with Angie before her first Muay Thai fight in 2015:
I also interviewed Angie in 2017 about being the first trans fighter to fight at Lumpinee:
below, my reaction watching Angie win her first fight at Lumpinee:
Read all my articles about Angie and her experiences here
3. Should Female Fighters Aim to Fight Men?
Sylvie beating an opponent with a 30 lb weight advantage, below:
Kevin's article on Male vs Female fights and Tara's fight vs a male fighter:
90-
read it here
Kevin interviewed me after Tara fought a male opponent in a fight we helped arrange, on what does it mean:
watch it here
There was also a female vs male fight that we commentated on after the fact, below:
watch top Thai female Fighter Buakaw fight vs a male opponent, with my and Kevin's commentary, here
Kevin's Twitter thoughts on the Lucia Rijker loss:
see the fight here
Below, Kevin's essay on the arguments that surround female fighters and the idea of "Natural Inferiority"
read that essay here
The apparel we discussed in the intro, supporting each legend. 100% of the profits going to them. These were the amounts we sent in a week:
see all the non-profit apparel here
This is the photo of Dieselnoi that Kevin talked about. A moment captured during Namkabuan's funeral:
You can find it here, in hi-res. All prints bought support the krus
The Muay Thai Bones Podcast for Patrons
A MTBs Podcast Shard - To Wrestle With the Angel (26 min)
Muay Thai Bones Podcast #20 - 90 Min Edition: 15 Rules for Muay Thai, Building My Own Training
Wichannoi & Dieselnoi Library Coffee Podcast #9 (Apple and Android)
Kru Diesel FA Group Library Coffee Podcast #8
Lakhin Wasantasit Library Coffee Podcast #7
Samson Isaan Library Coffee Podcast #6
Namsaknoi Library Coffee Podcast #5
Muay Thai Bones Interviews (iTunes) - When Muay Thai Meets Dance
Tak Cho. Nateetong Library Coffee Podcast #4
Muay Thai Bones Podcast - #11 (for iTunes) Training Violence, Sudden Growth Spurts (2 hrs, 37 min)
Napapol Giatsakchokchai Library Coffee Podcast (1 hr, 46 min)
Muay Thai Bones Podcast - #10 (for iTunes) Losing Sweetness, "Easy Fight" Sabotage (1 hr, 23 min)
Muay Thai Bones Podcast - #9 (for iTunes) Orca, Sak Yant, Long Guard, Flow (3 hrs, 45 min)
Sagat Petchyindee Library Coffee Podcast #2 (1 hr, 37 min)
Arjan Net Library Coffee Podcast #1 (1 hr, 22 min)
Muay Thai Bones Podcast - #6 (for iTunes) Clinch, Belts, Suffering (2 hrs, 46 min)
Muay Thai Bones Podcast - #7 (for iTunes) Buddhism, Sparring, Time (4 hrs)
You can get the EARLY days of Muay Thai Bones episodes, before we started creating audio streams in this video Playlist:
The Muay Thai Bones episode videos here
Comments
Ton van Mil
One thing that I noticed while listening to all the mtb podcasts, is that Kevin and Sylvie are very good at disagreeing, discussing a topic and squeezing every bit of nuance from eachothers viewpoints. A lot of people would resent eachother for that, but not these 2. Very good to see. This is only my interpretation btw ;)
Shell
By far one of the best MTBs!!! The tension!! LOL!!! I wanted it to be a live to add my comments in real time! Excellent content as always 🙏🏼
Mikko Haatainen
Another excellent podcast. I just finished listening to it, and I'll briefly give my viewpoint on the last topic (should female fighters aim to fight men). I find that Kevin and Sylvie are more in agreement than they perhaps realized while recording. The arguments were mainly about what each person meant with the words they said, and how the other person interpreted it. Kevin could definitely have started by phrasing his opening line as "women should aim to beat the best person in their weight class". Emphasizing that the best person is male, and that women should look up to their skill level as a goal, easily leads to a side argument about something that I feel was not Kevin's main point at all. The main point was, as I understood it, that it's important to find a way to overcome your current cultural limitations. I feel like you could have first agreed on that and continued to have a conversation on what the actual current situation is. From Sylvie's side, I got the feeling that she agreed on the main point but got a bit stuck on countering the side issue. The way women feel (and are made to feel by men) is a very important issue by its own rights. As someone who appreciates the impact of language on the way people think, I completely understand why Sylvie got so stuck on the exact wording even when she, at the same time, understood the point Kevin was trying to make. In the end, I feel like I understood you both, so no worries! I will also add that it is great how openly you discuss difficult issues where, at least initially, you don't agree or at least don't know yet if you agree.
Pop Praditbatuga
Just love these Muay Thai Bones sessions. You two are like Star Trek: "To boldly go where no one has gone before." Also a plus that you're also a Led Zeppelin fan - I grew up with Led Zeppelin posters all over my wall. I guess "The Song [Does Not Remain] ... the Same. " But hopefully, the Golden Era songs can still be enjoyed and played over and over again even if it's not equivalent to seeing Kashmir performed live... as long as Physical Graffiti is still available in quality.
