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Project Betelgeuse Developer Diary 004

🕑 Added 2021-09-01 02:35:13 +0000 UTC

Comments

gibbdude

Great take

wondermagenta

it's funny you single out ninja gaiden as probably very similar to those other games, because it actually stands out quite a bit. you hold the left trigger to enter your guard stance, tilting the left stick during will perform a quick step (basically a short distance i-frame dodge.) however, you can't actually truly cancel the recovery of your attacks with either of these like in most other action games. the one safety net is that, if you hold L2 while in recovery, ryu will enter the guard state the exact instance he's attacked. i wouldn't say it's really comparable to ghosts n goblins, but blocking always carries the risk of having your guard broken or being thrown, so it does end up feeling more committal than other action games.

Interesting update, Matthew. I am frustrated by the negative reception of games that don't provide some sort of free pass for all of a player's bad decisions. Out of boredom, I've stopped playing games that give ample access to invincibility frames.

I want this game.

Blooper

Great update, I appreciate a writeup like this a lot. I hadn't played many older beat em ups before I decided to play Streets of Rage 1 and 2(hey, maybe 3 someday) before 4 came out. Coming from modern action games, this focus on prediction and positioning felt completely unintuitive. I usually imagine fights(in games naturally) playing out like fighting games - you get up in the other guy's face, you block or dodge his moves and swing back with whatever you've got. Fighting games are mostly 1 on 1, but that goes for stuff like Dark Souls or DMC too. Punch-out is an old game that works like that and was completely intuitive in that sense. Meanwhile, with Streets of Rage, I really did have the slow realization of enemies being "bullets" like the metaphor about GnG being a bullet hell. It works fine as gameplay, but it doesn't exactly capture the Idea of how I think a martial arts fight is gonna work intuitively, and I much prefer enemies that act like you're "actually" fighting them - at least when they're shaped like humans. The patterns the enemies in SoR 1 and 2 took often seemed completely arbitrary to me - for instance there's nothing about a Donovan that says he'll anti-air you. You just learn it by being anti-aired. You're also very limited in your approach as a player. You can throw in different ways and all, but there's not a lot in there to experiment with and play with like in many modern action games, like you mention. And the approach to enemies is really counter-intuitive, at least to me. It made no sense that the right way to fight many of these goons was to abuse the "3d" space to walk into them from above and below them since they have few attacks that hit vertically. However, Streets of Rage 4 worked a lot better for me. The controls, on the whole, felt better. There was a larger variety of moves at your disposal, so you weren't seeing the same attacks again and again for ages, and could make a lot of fun little combos. You could save your game(without any savestates) and continue without starting over from the start. The health vanishing when you used special moves meant I rarely used them in SoR2. But in SoR4, because you regain green health when you hit an enemy, I used it a lot more liberally since it felt more fair. Even poison only takes away health you can regain, so for once I didn't just loathe poison in a game. It's less punishing by a mile. There were a lot of quality of life changes like that which added up to make it a lot more fun and a lot more fair without fundamentally changing it from the original Streets of Rage games, so while it hardly captures the Idea of fighting any more than those old ones, I like it much more. I think it could be better - a more interesting story and context(maybe some bad guys that weren't so untreathening) and different routes to take so a campaign playthrough had more variety. If you won't let me run as every character in a fight, at least let me run inbetween encounter so I don't have to snail my way over there. Most importantly, I really wish enemies had animations that telegraphed their attacks better. I don't think an enemy blinking and heading your way accurately conveys that it wants to grab you, compared to a model in a 3d action game coming at you with its arms out. The Darkroot Garden plant people make it very clear what their intentions are compared to the green cops or biker ladies in SoR4. But still, it's a vast improvement that I want to see even further iteration on. I dunno, writing this out, much of it feels like I just wrote "same" to a lot of what you said in a longwinded way, only I don't appreciate the old position-based approach as much. But at least I want to say, even if you make a game in that style, I think you'll avoid a lot of frustration just by coming at it from a modern perspective. Telegraph the hazards and attacks well, keep the punishments reasonable, all that stuff. I dunno if you're married to a fixed jump arc like some of these action platformers, but being able to adjust it more freely on the fly would probably help a lot too. It might be more "reactive", but when Mario or Alucard for that matter could do it it's hard to call it a modern trend. But regardless, as long as you land more on the SoR4 side than the SoR2 side, it's all good as far as I'm concerned. And I appreciate the opportunity to be able to write about SoR4 for a bit, lol. I bet it's seen a lot more success compared to Resurrection but it's still not a game I get to talk to others about much.

SteveReen

As an aside, I kind of dismissed Resurrection when I initially saw it but now I'm feeling encouraged to check it out. I've never gotten into the series before, but even if just to support such a game being made it seems worth my time/money haha. The whole section here about delayed punishment did a great job articulating a sensation I have at times. I tend to get caught up in that sort of frustration when those situations occur; in the moment I think "there didn't seem to be any way out of that?!" and sometimes a minute later or so I'll think back on it like "maybe I could have done something differently before then" but as you mention it's never easy to come to a definite conclusion. Thinking about this analysis might help me discipline myself and be more patient when those situations happen in the future.

I'm glad you mentioned delayed punishment in games. I recall playing GnG Resurrection and getting frustrated when I was cornered and killed. To me it seemed unfair because it made me fell helpless, like I had no control over my own fate. I guess I didn't realize what kind of game it was. I still enjoy it quite a bit either way.

My thoughts exactly. It certainly gave me something to think about!

Viridian Maridian

The “The Player is Always Right” section really resonated with me. I tried to get my buddy into Dark Souls and near the beginning he kept getting frustrated that his character was rolling backwards randomly. He thought it was a bug. Turned out he had a curved sword and was "kicking" accidentally. I told him to go and find a safe space, practice all of his moves and figure it out. Instead he just kept complaining at me that this "wasn't fun" for him and that I needed to tell him the answer so he can have fun again. It was just mind boggling how conditioned he was by other games to think that everything should be given to him on a silver platter. Never mind that The Asylum teaches you the "kick" move anyway, but how is it not player second nature to just press all the buttons and try to figure out your moveset? This line of thinking extended to a lot of the game, and it was clear he just wasn't going to put in the energy to figure it out by himself. Whether it's finding the next objective or overcoming a tough enemy encounter, we're seeing games increasingly focus on giving the player a million helping hands so they feel like they did something special, and fewer genuine challenges to carefully consider and conquer.

SteveReen

There is basically enough thoughtful commentary here to fill one of your videos, haha. Really enjoyed reading this. The recent update videos have been really cool too, and I've also enjoyed seeing the occasional streams on the side. Keep it up!

Incaptivity

Stellar update, given me lots to think about in regards to how some games are made/designed while also explaining yer own games. Look forward to all future endeavors

Matthewmatosis

I think the recent state machine videos show how the project is going so far. Still have a few more features to bolt onto it but I'm hopeful once it's finished I can repurpose it for enemies as well. If nothing else it gives me a lot of finely detailed control over the player character.


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